CatHobbyist.com Helmi Flick Digital Feline Photography March 1, 2005 PHCoosmom: Welcome to PetHobbyist's 7th Annual Chat Week Thank you for attending our chat with Nancy Speed on Breeding birds. This is a protocol chat. Please do not send chat to the room during the program. If you have a question or comment for our guest, please send a "?" or "!" symbol to the screen and you will be placed in the queue and called upon by the host when it is your turn. We appreciate your cooperation and hope that you will enjoy our chat tonight. Birdhobbyist is happy to present our first guest speaker, Nancy Speed. Nancy is the owner and operator of The P Patch Aviary. She has twenty years of experience as a breeder. Nancy focuses on six Amazon species (including Cuban and Vinaceous), ten species of cockatoos, seven species of macaws (including Hyacinth, Illiger’s, and Bluethroated), Caiques, Hawk-headed parrots, and the Queen of Bavaria conure. Please welcome Nancy to The Aviary. PHXue: WELCOME NANCY! William_nr: Welcome. PicoMacaw: Hiya Nancy! palmtoolady: welcome nancy Nancbird: Welcome amy33_nr: hello nancy PHCoosmom: WE are ready to take questions. Please indicate your question with a ? or !. MsPPatch: This is so exciting!! PHCoosmom: Nancy, I know you breed amazons and toos, can you give us a list of the species you breed. MsPPatch: In amazons, cuban, vinaceous, lilac-crowned, napes, double yellow-heads, blue-fronteds. I also have one pair of white-fronted and one pair of orange-winged. Nancbird: ? PHXue: ga Nancbird Nancbird: you breed Hys? Are they harder to breed? MsPPatch: In cockatoos almost all of the white species. Ms_Morgann: hello??? MsPPatch: I do have some hy pairs but have yet to have a fertile egg!! PHCoosmom: ? palmtoolady: ? PHXue: ga Coos PHCoosmom: Nancy, I know you breed some species that need special permits, can you explain how you got into that area of breeding? MsPPatch: I saw a picture of a Cuban amazon in a parrot book. That was when I knew I wanted them. palmtoolady: what types of things do you do to try to prevent problems with mate aggression with your cockatoos and what signs do you watch for MsPPatch: I didn't know one thing about them but I had the funds to buy them (not always the best route to go). MsPPatch: I check all of the toos very early each morning. I already know from having them many years which males are liable to be aggressive. The first hint of aggression is the hen being on the ground. MsPPatch: Often she has a bewildered look on her face since she has no idea what she did to incite the male. MsPPatch: For me it is always the same pairs every year. Steaphany: Good evening MsPPatch: Some people think parent reared toos do not get aggressive. This year I lost a 3 year old parent fledged hen due to aggression by a 4 year old parent fledged male. There was no warning at all. MsPPatch: He broke her jaw and she died during surgery. PicoMacaw: how awful, that has to be very sad MsPPatch: I am still grieving over this loss. I hatched both of them and waited all that time just for that to happen. Nancbird: ! PHXue: ga Nanc MsPPatch: Sometimes clipping the male will work but most of the time I put the male in a howdy cage to give him time to calm his hormones. Nancbird: I heard in the wild they don't do that because the femlae can fly away..must be hard when in a cage, poor babies... William_nr: ? PHCoosmom: So far, this is a great group. MsPPatch: I never remove the hen since she must re-establish her dominance or some semblance of it. Billbobjoefrank: hello MsPPatch: Yes, Nanc, I imagine in the wild the male would not leave the nesting area? PHXue: ga William palmtoolady: ? William_nr: Could aggression be due to the age difference in the birds? MsPPatch: If you see feathers on the floor of the aviary it means the male is pulling them from the hen. Often he starts with the wings and the hen will have wing tips that look a litle battered. palmtoolady: Do you find rosies to be on the low end of the mate aggression scale as far as cockatoos go MsPPatch: William I do believe age difference can be a factor in some instances. For instance, someone today asked me if I would put a 3 year old cuban hen with a 26 year old male. That is way too much of a difference. William_nr: How much difference would be too much? MsPPatch: I have never had a problem with rosie aggression but I have heard of some people having it. Have you had any yourself? palmtoolady: no MsPPatch: Rosies are pretty social birds and I have heard of people breeding them in colonies. MsPPatch: Can you give me an example William? MsPPatch: Sometimes I like to put a younger male with an older hen. PHCoosmom: ? William_nr: I don't breed larger birds so I don't have an example, I was just wondering if there was a rule of thumb. Nancbird: ? PHXue: ga coos MsPPatch: If I were doing it I would think if a female were at least 5 or so the male could be older. What I would wonder about is the male's history with other hens. Was he old enough to establish a history of abuse? MsPPatch: Especially with cockatoos one must be very careful in buying single males. What happened to the hen? palmtoolady: ? PHCoosmom: Do you see mate aggression with any other species?
PicoMacaw: I'm surprized she doesn't see it in Caiques
MsPPatch: Cuban amazons are worse than any cockatoo.
PHCoosmom: Interesting, any idea why?
PHXue: ga Nancibird
Nancbird: Coo's asked the same question I had! LOL, I have to go, nice talking to you all
PHCoosmom: Night Nancy, thanks
PHXue: ga palmlady
MsPPatch: I think it is just their nature. Perhaps in the wild they must be very aggressive in defending their nest. In most amazon species the hen picks the male. In most species of amazons the male and female can live as friends very easily. But the Cubans are not like other amazons (perhaps because they are island birds?).
palmtoolady: What style box are you using for your rosies and do you breed major mitchells also do most of your rosies feed their chicks
MsPPatch: I haven't kept the major mitchells. What beautiful birds they are!!
MsPPatch: I have four pairs
MsPPatch: of rosies and only one pair will incubate and feed their chicks. Two other pair break their eggs as fast as they can.
palmtoolady: sounds like mine
PHXue: ?
MsPPatch: My nestbox for the rosies is a "7" box--an upside down boot that is 30" deep.
MsPPatch: Two pair have a 48" deep boot style box. You would think they would be happy with one that deep.
PHXue: I have a question, for beginning breeders, what advice do you have?
palmtoolady: I'm using a T box for both me pair it seems to be OK for them
PHXue: setting up a breeding program
MsPPatch: That depends on what species you would like to breed. I started with lovebirds.
MsPPatch: My first pair of "big" birds was a pair of sun conures (I still have the male).
PHQuills: ?
palmtoolady: ?
MsPPatch: My first piece of advice would be to find a mentor--someone who will not mind answering questions any time you need an answer.
MsPPatch: There are some very nice people in the bird world and some not very nice people.
PHCoosmom: ?
MsPPatch: I had some of the stupidest questions anyone could imagine when I started.
PHCoosmom: PHQuill GA
PHQuills: Can you give me some pointers on sexing cockatiels? I have a "male" and "female" according to coloration, but I don't trust it much. :-P
PHCoosmom: LOL
MsPPatch: I can send you an email with Diane Grindol's contact info. She would certainly be more knowledgeable than me on that.
MsPPatch: And she would be an excellent mentor!! What a very nice lady she is.
PHXue: ga palmtoolady
PHQuills: My "girl" acts dominant, and occasionally tries to mount, my "boy" is submissive and squats for her. :-P
palmtoolady: I have a grey hen that has just started to lay her clutch for the first time ever she has removed all the bedding from the end of the box her eggs are in and they are directly on the wood bottom this hen has never done anything bad to anything in her box if I check it do you think I should try to add bedding or just leave everything alone
PHQuills: Which is why I don't trust it.
MsPPatch: Okay. I just figured out what GA meant.
PHXue: LOL MsP, thought you knew!
PHCoosmom: f
MsPPatch: I have the same thing happen in my pair of rosies that incubate. Right now she is on bare metal. Last year I added some nesting material and put the eggs on top and she abandoned the nest. So this year I am just leaving things alone. GA
PHXue: ga coos
oldgrouch8: ?
MsPPatch: How old are the cockatiels?
PHQuills: 1 1/2-2
MsPPatch: I know in other species the youngsters "practice" copulating. But I would think the tiels would have it all figure out. GA
PHCoosmom: Nancy, I would like to know where someone can go to find good mentors?
MsPPatch: That's a good question. I always have gone to as many seminars as I could to hear different speakers.
MsPPatch: I was always wary of someone who thought there was nothing else for them to learn.
PHXue: ga og
MsPPatch: It doesn't have to be someone who has been breeding for many many years either because often they are so "set" in their ways they never change to the new and better method.
MsPPatch: Ooops GA
William_nr: Her name makes me laugh, there used to be a leather bar in Atlanta called Ms. P's.
oldgrouch8: wondering with the stories I hear of egg distruction etc, if most of the sucessful breeders end up pulling the eggs very early and incubate
MsPPatch: Oh wow. I never have worn leather. My Sunday School teacher would not approve!
PHCoosmom: Her aviary is P PATCH PARROTS
PHCoosmom: LOL Nancy.
PHXue: ROFLOL!!
MsPPatch: If you incubate all the eggs you certainly will rear more chicks. But I try to think of the future. Will there be a day way off in the future when a hen looks at her egg and perhaps thinks "What is this and what do I do with it."
William_nr: Sorry! LOL
PHXue: don't get og started on leather.........
PHCoosmom: ?
oldgrouch8: leathER?
oldgrouch8: hmmm, I seem to remember somthing about that
MsPPatch: I personally believe all birds should be given the opportunity to incubate eggs and feed their young and even rear them to fledging. I could have twice the golden conures I have now if I had pulled every egg for incubation.
PHXue: ga coos......
MsPPatch: The job for me is not incubating another egg. It is seeing parrots in captivity doing what Nature intended even if they do it under different circumstances than Nature intended.
MsPPatch: That should have said the "joy for me".
PHCoosmom: Nancy, a question that many folks have is what happens to older breeders that are retired. How do you handle your retired breeders?
oldgrouch8: I have a b&g hen, what age may egg production start, knowing that it may not, but what age is the machinery turn on ussually
MsPPatch: Today I had to take a newly hatched moluccan from its parents. They had no idea how to feed it but had tried. Its wing tips were a little bruised . Maybe next time she will do better.
palmtoolady: ?
MsPPatch: But I also had a pair of golden conures with their first clutch ever. She did not feed the first one and I took it f inally. But she did feed the second and third one. That is what I love about breeding.
MsPPatch: Blue and golds usually begin producing at about 3 years of age.
MsPPatch: But if she is not with a male she may never lay an egg. GA
oldgrouch8: thanks, another year of grace
PHXue: ga palmtoolady
palmtoolady: When I lose a baby because the parents killed it the first time I always assume it could have been a nest box accident and eating the baby was natures way of getting rid of it how many times do you let a pair try to raise their chicks without the pair having success before you simply pull the eggs and hatch them yourself
MsPPatch: You just have to trust yourself. You know your birds better than anyone. I would not feel guilty if I decided to take that course of action. I have some amazons that won't feed and I don't think they will ever feed. And I have one pair of napes that have destroyed their eggs one day before hatch for the last two years. I don't think I will let them keep them that long this year.
MsPPatch: Sometimes it is the male that is the problem. You can put him in a howdy cage and hang him next to the hen while she incubates.
MsPPatch: Male caiques can be particularly nasty to their chicks. GA
PHXue: ?
PHXue: ok, what's a howdy cage?
PHXue: and, I didn't know caiques were nasty!
PHXue: so, they're hard to breed?
MsPPatch: That's a smaller cage that you hang at the female's flight. All he can do is say "Howdy." He can't get to her.
PHXue: why would you do that?
PHXue: I'm confused
palmtoolady: I have a pair of eclectus that kill the chicks everytime I put the male in a separate cage just before hatch and still wound up with dead babies so I know it was my hen doing it
MsPPatch: To introduce a male to a hen for instance. Or to let a hen incubate eggs when the male is an egg breaker.
William_nr: ?
PHXue: oh, ok, I can see to introduce
MsPPatch: I have the same situation except it is the male that gets in when the hen leaves the nest!!
PHXue: but wasn't sure why while incubabating.....why not just put him in another cage? does he still feed her?
MsPPatch: Eclectus can be different don't you think?
palmtoolady: ?
PHXue: ga William
MsPPatch: Sometimes the male will break the eggs if he can get to them.
oldgrouch8: goodbye and thank you
William_nr: How does the hen get fed if the mate is in another cage?
MsPPatch: Every time I have done this the hen comes out on her own and eats and also feeds the chicks. I have a pair of caiques in this situation right now. I did not know if she would come down to get food for the chicks and watched very carefully, but she did so everything was okay. I am sure she wonders why he is not feeding her!!!
MsPPatch: In some species the male will help feed the chicks--like the golden conure. But in other species the male does not feed the chicks until they fledge.
PHXue: ga palmtoolady
PHCoosmom: ?
palmtoolady: Do you find your eclectus babies a bit more time consuming shall I say to feed than other species once they reach 5 or 6 weeks old sometimes I feel that feeding eclectus babies is going to do me in
MsPPatch: Oh yes. They see you one morning and you are the green eyed monster and the syringe becomes the murder weapon. I cover their face with a washcloth and they usually go right to eating.
MsPPatch: I have a little girl that is doing that now.
palmtoolady: oh so covering their face is the secret my eclectus chicks usually have their heads buried and are like no way am I going to let you feed me LOL
palmtoolady: one last question
MsPPatch: Okay.
palmtoolady: I tend to get air in the crops of greys when i feed them I've never had air in and eclectus crop do you know what I am doing wrong that I get air in their crops
MsPPatch: PHCoosmom had asked me about retired breeders way back there.
MsPPatch: Are they very young chicks when this happens?
palmtoolady: my vet can't feed my grey babies without getting air in their crops either shes tried LOL
palmtoolady: yes very young
MsPPatch: When Joe (hubby) feeds he worries alot about air in the crop at the top. Maybe I should worry about it but I don't think I ever have unless it looks gassy and fermented which would indicate an infection (but you probably already know that). Joe tries to burp them.
MsPPatch: I have had rosies get air in their crops. They are such little buggars to feed.
William_nr: Good night all, thank you very much, I have to go feed babies.
PHXue: nite William
MsPPatch: Thank you for coming William.
palmtoolady: my vet showed me how to burp them but I don't like to do it she told me if getting air in the crop was the worse thing I did not to worry about it but my type A personality wants me to feed them without getting air in LOL
PHCoosmom: Nancy, thank you so much for coming tonight. We all appreciate you taking time to be here.
William_nr: No, thanks for all the great info.
MsPPatch: I hope I did okay.
PHXue: yes, thank you Nancy
PHCoosmom: Folks, ouir next speaker is Genny Wall on the legal issues of keeping birds on Weds night.
palmtoolady: thank you so much for all you wonderful and helpful info this evening I really enjoyed and appreciated this
William_nr: Very good A+
PHXue: sounds like you have LOTS of babies
PHCoosmom: Thank you all for coming.
MsPPatch: I need a reminder of Genny's talk.
PHCoosmom: LOL Nancy, how many in the nursery now?
PHCoosmom: I will send you one Nancy.
MsPPatch: We really need to get alot of people then.
PHXue: you will send me a baby coos? LOL
PHCoosmom: LOL
MsPPatch: I don't have too m any right now. I had to take that little moluccan darn it. And I have a couple of illiger chicks. That pair breaks every egg they lay. I even put in some sterile chicken eggs and they broke those too.
PHCoosmom: Ms P, I will send you and email with Quills email address.
PHXue: how long have you been breeding?
palmtoolady: good night everyone thank you again
PHCoosmom: OH, a nanday conure on Pet star.
PHCoosmom: Nite Pat.
PHCoosmom: Take care
MsPPatch: I'd really like for my Hahn's to do something fertile!!
MsPPatch: Gosh about l8 years now. I started with lovebirds.
MsPPatch: My first baby lovebird died about 2 years ago.
PHXue: do you have a favorite?
PHXue: aww, sorry :(
PHXue: (LOL, had to ask that)
MsPPatch: That's okay!!!!!
MsPPatch: Probably the vinaceous amazon and the golden conure and the caique.
PHXue: I've always wanted a caique
MsPPatch: I am not really a cockatoo person!! And I love my little quaker that is the resident nursery bird.
PHXue: I love my quaker too!! she's a hoot!
MsPPatch: Quakers are wonderful birds.
PHCoosmom: Xue Caiques are on my "wish list" also.
PHCoosmom: I have heard such wonderful things about them.
PHXue: yeah, there's one in a pet shop near work, he's so funny!
PHXue: rolling around playing with everything
PHXue: fun loving lil bird
MsPPatch: I often find good homes for my handicapped caiques if you would like me to keep you in mind.
PHXue: who? me? coos? me & coos?????
PHCoosmom: LOL Xue.
PHXue: [img id=em-5]
PHXue: heh heh, I ain't proud..........
PHCoosmom: Nancy, cannot think of a better home than Xue's.
MsPPatch: What does xue mean?
MsPPatch: Oh now I see.
PHXue: it's my dog's name, my shih tzu
PHCoosmom: It is time for me to go. THank you so much NAncy. I really do appreciate it.
PHXue: she's a sweetie
MsPPatch: Sometimes the male will take the tip of a wingie off.
MsPPatch: Yeah time for me to sign off too. I hope I did okay and made you proud.
PHCoosmom: Nancy, I will send youi an email with Quills email address .
PHCoosmom: You did great.
PHXue: me too, thank you so much, hope to see you again!!
PHCoosmom: Thank you sooo much.
PHXue: nite all!
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