Schedules & Transcripts PetHobbyist.com Main Chat Week Schedule Reptile & Amphibian Chats Dog Chats Cat Chats Bird Chats Fish & Aquarium Chats Small Mammal/Exotic Pet Chats Subscribe to our free email newsletters about pets and animal issues Email Address:

BirdHobbyist.com
Genny Wall
Legal Issues for Bird Owners
March 2, 2005

PHCatByte: Welcome to PetHobbyist's 7th Annual Chat Week Thank you for attending our chat with Genny Wall speaking on Legal issues and Birds.

This is a protocol chat. Please do not send chat to the room during the program.
If you have a question or comment for our guest, please send a "?" or "!" symbol to the screen and you will be placed in the queue and called upon by the host when it is your turn.

We appreciate your cooperation and hope that you will enjoy our chat tonight.

PHCoosmom: Welcome Genny Wall to our Birdhobbyist chat. Genny is an attorney in the State of California.

PHXue: Welcome Genny!

Gennygem: Thanks

PHXue: (from NC)

PHCoosmom: Genny is the Chair of the American Federation of Aviculture's Avian Welfare Committee. The AFA is a nonprofit national organization established in 1974, whose purpose is to represent all aspects of aviculture and to educate the public about keeping and breeding birds in captivity. Genny has owned parrots for more than 17 years, and bred and hand-fed small parrots for several years. Since 1990 she has operated The Last Chance Ranch, a privately owned and privately funded parrot care, conservation, and retirement center in Southern California. The center is currently responsible for the care of more than 300 parrots.

Genny is also on the Board of the Orange County Bird of Prey Center in Lake Forest, CA, a center which receives sick and injured birds of prey, rehabilitates them, and when possible releases them back to the habitat. The center also provides public educational programs on birds of prey.

PHCoosmom: Genny, first question for you is

PHCoosmom: WHat do you see as the biggest legal concern for bird owners at this time?

Gennygem: Coosmom, I see the movement to pass restrictive legislation on animal owners of all kinds as a huge threat today

Gennygem: by restrictive I mean legislation that is designed to impair our ability to keep our animals

Gennygem: there are some folks out there who don't have the same human/animal bond that we do

Gennygem: ga

PHXue: ?

PHCoosmom: xue, GA

PHXue: so what do you suggest the average bird owner do? to find out about laws in their state?

Gennygem: Xue, the average bird owner can join their local bird club, or AFA ( a national organizaiton)

texparrot_nr: ?

Gennygem: by joining with others who share our interests we can have more sets of eyeballs looking for these kinds of things

PHCoosmom: ?

Gennygem: yes Chac?

PHXue: ahh, another reason to join a bird club :)

PHXue: hadn't thought of that

PHCoosmom: tex, GA
parakeet: ?

texparrot_nr: ?

PHCoosmom: Go ahead tex.

texparrot_nr: What effect do diseases such as west nile, avian flu and others play in legislation

Gennygem: Thats a great question Tex

texparrot_nr: thanks

Gennygem: unfortunately they scare our legislators

Gennygem: I think we need to address those disease issues calmly, with an understanding of what potential legislation will do to those of us who own the regulalted animals or activities

Gennygem: for example, West Nile is a disease of birds that doesn't affect humans for the most part

Gennygem: while Avian influenza may affect many people if it becomes pandemic

Gennygem: they need to be understood

Gennygem: how they spread, who is threatened, etc

Gennygem: West Nile seems to be running its course

Gennygem: while AI is sitll lurking out there scaring the heck out of people

Gennygem: the response in Asia has been to kill everything with feathers if AI is discovered

Gennygem: that is what they did here in CA with END (Exotic Newcastles Disease)

Gennygem: personally, I don't think that's a fair solution for the birds or their owners

Gennygem: we have to weigh the interests of the food producers vs the interests of birds and their owners

Gennygem: balance economics vs welfare

Gennygem: its a hard thing to balance when economics has all the big bucks :(

Gennygem: does that answer your question?

PHXue: ga coos

PHCoosmom: Genny, can you give us some recent examples of legislation or regulation that will or has effected bird ownership?

Gennygem: 2 come to mind

Gennygem: AB202 in California and the federal Animal Welfare Act

Gennygem: AB202 restricts the selling of unweaned baby birds by pet stores to anyone (even those who are qualified to hand feed)

Gennygem: IMHO it was an overreaction to a problem that could have and should have been addressed in a different way

Gennygem: we could have made sellers who sell unweaned birds to unprepared hand feeders liable for damages

Gennygem: that would not harm those who are able to hand feed

Gennygem: I would like to see the law amended to allow those who are able to hand feed to be able to purchase unweaned birds again

Gennygem: As for the federal AWA

Gennygem: birds (all 9000 + species of them) are now supposed to be included under that act

Gennygem: now breeders, dealers, keepers and exhibitors and transporters of birds will have to comply with regulations which are now being written

Gennygem: many may not be able to comply, and will likely go out of business

Gennygem: this is not positive for us or our birds IMHO

Gennygem: it will be very difficult if not impossible for the feds to write a meaningful set of care regulations for all birds

Gennygem: a watered down set will be a sham

Gennygem: so again, good intentions don't necessarily guarantee a good outcome when it comes to legislating about animals or their care

Gennygem: we need people who are knowledgeable about animals and their care involved from day one if there are to be useful regulations written

Gennygem: this has not historically been the case

Gennygem: most regulations are written by people with little hands on knowledge of the animals they are trying to help

Gennygem: its a tricky situation

Gennygem: ga

texparrot_nr: ?

PHXue: ga tex

texparrot_nr: what organizations does AFA work with to monitor legislation?

Gennygem: Laurella Desborough, AFA's legislative VP, takes the lead there

ltdead: ?

Gennygem: I understand she works with several organizations (or members of several), such as PIJAC, NAIA, several other bird organizations

Gennygem: also, members of AFA keep her informed on their local laws

Gennygem: she heads the AFA legislative team (I am a member) and as laws or proposals are brought to our attention we look into them

Gennygem: if they are serious - or will seriously impact the ability of folks to keep birds, we pass along that information

JBIRD_nr: ?

Gennygem: ga

PHXue: ga ltdead

palmtoolady: are comments OK

JBIRD_nr: How long has AFA been fighting the battle for bird owners?

ltdead: Right now, there`s a ban on importing birds from Asia. Since I live in Japan (with two cockatiels), this is a potential problem. I imagine it`s because of Avian Influenza. But there`s a TEST for that. You know if there`s a way to get permission to have a bird tested and imported dispite the ban?

Gennygem: JB - AFA was formed in 1974 (I think) in response to a proposal in CA that would have stopped birdkeeping in that State

Gennygem: and they have been working to alert bird folks to legislative issues ever since

Gennygem: LT - do you mean to import into the US?

ltdead: Right.

Gennygem: The "ban" on import I think you are referring to is the ban on importing wild birds into the US

Gennygem: You are allowed to bring back your pets

Gennygem: I am not aware of any ban on bringing pet birds back from Asia at this time, but I wouldn't swear to that - I can check on that if you would like

ltdead: No, there`s currently a ban on importing any birds (pet, poultry, whatever) from Asia. At least there was when I was checking the import webpage a week or two ago.

Gennygem: hmmm, that's a new one to me - what webpage was that?

PHCoosmom: ?

PHXue: ga palmtoolady, I guess lt's getting the page

ltdead: I believe it was the USDA page. I`m looking for it now.

palmtoolady: I'm in Illinois and recently we have had a couple of bills affecting our birds, the latest being HB0707. Luckily we have 4 bird clubs in the area with about 500 members between them and they are on the ball about legislative issues . Recently enough of us wrote letters and visited our congressmen in person and got it removed from the docket . People have to take action

Gennygem: I agree Palmtoolady - we need to join together with other bird folks, and with other animal folks, to protect our rights to keep our animals

Gennygem: when I say "rights" I am not being a reactionary :)

Gennygem: there are people who don't believe we have the "right" to "own" animals, and they are very active in trying to restrict that right

Gennygem: not all legislation is restrictive, and if a law will actually help animals I am very willing to support it

Gennygem: but it is the restrictive legislation that I oppose - the legislation that exists for the purpose of making it illegal or impractical for us to continue to keep our animals

Gennygem: TooLady - what did HB0707 do (had it passed)?

PHXue: ga coos

palmtoolady: no it has been removed from the docket thanks to the bird club members it contained ridiculous things like your birds food had to be perscribed by a vet

Gennygem: ah, yes, I remember that one now

JBIRD_nr: ?

palmtoolady: I have a copy of the bill I could send you later I think I still have it

Gennygem: thanks TooLady, I have it in my files :)

PHXue: ga JBird

JBIRD_nr: what events will I see AFA reps at

Gennygem: JB - AFA is made up of several Regions

Gennygem: each region has a Regional Director and State Coordinators under them

Gennygem: most of those people attend local bird events, such as bird fairs, conventions, and belong to local bird clubs

Gennygem: in fact, AFA is a federation of local bird clubs across the country - that is its structure

Gennygem: the clubs elect the AFA directors

texparrot_nr: ?

PHXue: ga ltdead

ltdead: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/ncie/pet-bird-non-us.html (My birds are of Japanese origin, not US. I got them here. The ban also requires US origin birds to go into USDA quarantine, instead of the usual at-home quarantine.)

ltdead: I can`t find anything on the net clairifying whether or not Canada has a similar ban in effect...

Gennygem: Itdead - I see they are restricting birds from Asia, you are probably right because of the AI threat

Gennygem: no telling when that will be lifted

Gennygem: the recent USDA quarantine because of END in the Southwest lasted almost 2 years

Gennygem: we couldn't transport birds outside of the quarantined areas

Gennygem: not even our pets

ltdead: Actually, you could if you had them tested. I did transport birds out of Southern California during that time.

ltdead: So that`s why I`m wondering if there is anyway to have the birds tested for AI, and have them transported out of Japan that way...

Gennygem: yes, there were ways to do it, if you wanted to jump through all the hoops - thank goodness I didn't have to do that

Gennygem: It - have you called USDA to ask?

texparrot_nr: If AI ramps like they are predicting, with a 74% mortality rate, importing birds from asia will become impossible

texparrot_nr: but it will also be the last of our worries

Gennygem: it is scary to think about that, isn't it?

texparrot_nr: very

ltdead: Not yet. I`m not coming back to the US for another year... But I`d also like to talk to them to see if there`s anyway to do an at home quarantine instead of the 30-day USDA quarantine. Which is certainly not an option until this ban is raised at the very least.

texparrot_nr: the worlds just too darn close together now

Gennygem: I'd call them to see how flexible they are

ltdead: Yes, but as far as I`m aware of, Japan has been AI free for about a year now. It`s very frustrating.

ltdead: Alright, thanks.

PHXue: tex, did you have a question too? if so, you're next

texparrot_nr: naw we already covered it

PHCatByte: !

PHXue: ok,, then ga coos

Gennygem: I have a question :)

PHXue: LOL, well, you're after Cat, Genny :)

PHCoosmom: Me first Genny. LOL

Gennygem: lol ok

PHCoosmom: Genny what things do you suggest bird owners do to make sure their birds are cared for if something happens to them?

Gennygem: #1 talk to people who can care for them if you can't, and make arrangements to formalize the arrangement legally

Gennygem: set aside money for their care

Gennygem: make sure the new caretaker has everything they need from you to do their job

Gennygem: history, vet info, likes and dislikes, money

Gennygem: and legal paperwork to be sure nobody else steps in to thwart your wishes

Gennygem: do not assume it will happen

Gennygem: remember what happens when you ASS U ME

Gennygem: and most importantly, don't think that a sanctuary will be there to do the job

Gennygem: it won't

Gennygem: very few sanctuaries are equipped to take on our birds in the numbers that will be passed on

Gennygem: we have to be responsible for them - it is our job

Gennygem: ga

PHXue: ga cat

PHCatByte: thank you for pointing out the obvious--that restrictive legislation for ONE species can become

PHCatByte: law for ALL.....

PHCatByte: somehow, i've known about dog and cat and ferret stuff, but never thought about it affecting birds, too!

PHCatByte: ga

PHXue: good point, Genny, comment? and your question

Gennygem: I agree its a good point

Gennygem: remember birds are animals

Gennygem: any animal legislation can potentially affect us and our birds

Gennygem: we are not living in an isolated world

PHXue: ?

Gennygem: any list of prohibited species, prohibited acts, can be expanded later once it is law

Gennygem: ga

PHCoosmom: xue, yoiu have the last question

Gennygem: my question was going to be about estate planning :)

Gennygem: you asked it

PHCoosmom: GA Xue

PHXue: that brings to mind Quakers, should we be more active in learning those laws?

PHXue: since they're already restricted in some states?

Gennygem: I would suggest you become involved any time you see animal legislation

Gennygem: read it, think about it, and if you see bad points, speak up

Gennygem: quaker legislation is one that IMHO is not needed

PHXue: exactly

Gennygem: I don't have them here, but I understand that there are studies that show that quakers have not caused the agricultural damage that was predicted

Gennygem: IMHO they should be repealed

Gennygem: just because something is proposed, or is already law, doesn't mean it is reasonable

PHXue: and certainly not pets! they don't run wild, destroying crops

jeffb: What about the mennites?

Gennygem: think for yourself, be proactive for your animal's benefit

PHXue: (just my house, lol)

Gennygem: <------- knows nada about mennonites

PHCoosmom: UGH Jeff.

PHCoosmom: LOL

PHXue: mennonites?

PHCatByte: as opposed to quakers, i presume

PHCoosmom: Thank you Genny, we do appreciate your time this evening.

jeffb: yes if we talk about legislating the quakers

Gennygem: oh, lol

PHXue: OH!! LOL

PHXue: DUH

PHCoosmom: Thank you all for coming. Our next guest speaker will be Nancy Sheffer to speak on Thursday evening. Nancy will speak about "Teaching your bird to play". Please feel free to come and ask questions.