Transcript of Chat with Dr. Brian Speer
Sunday, December 14, 2003
A Chat Week 2003 Event on BirdHobbyist.com
PHMacayo: Good evening everyone and thank you for joining us tonight!
PHMacayo: Welcome to our special chat with guest speaker Dr. Brian Speer, discussing veterinary care of birds. We are using protocol, which means no general chatting. Type ? if you have a question and ! if you have a comment. PHCoosmom will call on you in turn. Please have your question ready to send when it is your turn and type in ga when you are finished with your question(s) so we know to go on to the next person.
jama_nr: Hey, Rima
PHMacayo: BirdHobbyist.com is pleased to welcome Brian Speer, DVM, ABVP(av) ECAMS, and co-author of both Birds for Dummies and The Large Macaws discussing Veterinary Care of Birds as our guest during our Sixth Annual Chat Week.
PHMacayo: Dr. Speer is owner and director of California's Oakley Veterinary Medical Center and The Medical Center for Birds. Since 1989, Dr. Speer has limited his practice exclusively to bird species, including psittacines, ratites, gamebirds, raptors and waterfowl. Tonight he'll be sharing with us a historical perspective on his 30 years working with exotic birds.
DrBrianSpeer: Thanks so much for the introduction!
PHMacayo: Thanks, Dr. Speer and welcome! Do you want to make some opening comments before taking questions?
DrBrianSpeer: But... I ain't that old! :-))
PHChristy: LOL
PHMacayo: Oh oh...I think some of our prepared text must have gotten mixed up!
DrBrianSpeer: I've been practicing since 1983, and exclusively working with avian species since 1989.
PHChristy: I suspect I'm guilty of making a typo somewhere down the line, should be 20 years
DrBrianSpeer: Mix-ups are fine - that's life, I think.
PHChristy: Dr. Speer, just don't tell Gina I made an editorial error
jlong: ?
DrBrianSpeer: Our awareness of birds, their health and well being has certainlyh changed over that 20-30 years, though, hasn't it?
DrBrianSpeer: ga jlong
jama_nr: ?
DrBrianSpeer: Any general questions before I start?
jama_nr: How do you
DrBrianSpeer: ga jama
jama_nr: sorry
jlong: ?
PHRima: PHChristy: Dr. Speer, please just go ahead with your presentation, I think everyone will wait until after to ask their questions. :)
PHChristy: LOL Rima
DrBrianSpeer: ga
jlong: I'll wait until after the presentation to ask questions....
DrBrianSpeer: :-)) I am very hapily married to my best friend, Denise. She is the smart one in our family.
DrBrianSpeer: I prepared about three general questions to start some discussion tonight...
DrBrianSpeer: Are you ready for question 1?
stonefly: i am ready :)
PHMacayo: Did we know this was a test? :)
PHMacayo: oops
PHChristy: ga Dr Speer!
DrBrianSpeer: What is the most common disease category we see in our practice with pet birds?
a. Psittacosis
b. Clinical malnutrition
c. Behavioral disorders
d. Cancer
e. Bacterial infections
parrotnutz_nr: B
Caliope_nr: c
DrBrianSpeer: Give it your best shot, and then we can talk about things a bit...
wolfette1961_nr: e
PHRima: e
Janell_nr: b
BirdDummy_nr: e
stonefly: i thought they were all common!
jama_nr: malnutritition?
jlong: C
Caridad_nr: e
PHRima: oh.."bad diet" count as malnutrition or not?
pollybyrd_nr: b
PHRima: :)
Fatrock_nr: E
PHMacayo: Since you qualified it as "disease", I'd go with e
DrBrianSpeer: All are common, but one disease category stands head and shoulders higher in incidence over the others.
utlonghorn_nr: e
wolfette1961_nr: A
stonefly: then whatever rima said lol
PHRima: Better not be cancer..;)..no one picked that
DrBrianSpeer: "Disease" = a condition in a patient that makes it ill at ease, or to lose homeostasis
DrBrianSpeer: Anyone want to change their answers yet?
stonefly: lol
PHRima: uh oh..could you say that in ";ineral arts maj\or" terms?
PHMaribou: liberal arts
PHMaribou: lol
Caridad_nr: ok, I'm changing to c
Caridad_nr: I'm going to regret that
PHRima: Maribou is my onlien translator..:0
DrBrianSpeer: "bad diets" are common - but clinical adverse effects as a diagnosed disorder may be different..
PHMaribou: online lol
PHMacayo: In that case, I'll go with B
Caridad_nr: <---really a herp person, so has to have a handicap on this test
DrBrianSpeer: Anyone think Psittacosis is number one?
jbell_nr: e
PHRima: jlong: nope, not these days
PHRima: uhh..is that a int?
PHRima: hint?
PHMacayo: Is that a hint, Dr. Speer?[img id=em-4]
DrBrianSpeer: It IS the number one reported zoonotic disease we get from birds. Approximately 32 - 80 reported human cases to CDC each year.
PHRima: oh we...ZOONOTIC...ya didnt' say zoonotic..:)
PHMaribou: holy moly!
DrBrianSpeer: But.... more Americans are stricken by lighning bolds on the golf course than that...
DrBrianSpeer: So, you are right that this is a "high profile disease" - but not one that really is a "biggie" in actual statistical impact
DrBrianSpeer: How many thought clinical malnutrition was the most common answer?
Janell_nr: I did.
PHRima: Umm...well..."problems arisign from bad diet"..is that the same?
DrBrianSpeer: It is a good choice, for sure. But, statistically in our daily practice, it is number two.
DrBrianSpeer: Good questionRima - what kinds of problems?
Janell_nr: Behavior
PHRima: Okay..welcoem back guys..:)
PHMaribou: doh! we all got the boot!
jlong: I was bumped, was everyone else?
PHRima: See what happens when you ask ME a question Dr,. Speer??
PHRima: :)
DrBrianSpeer: Oops, I got bumped out.
PHRima: I didn't get teh boot
jama_nr: # 2 is still pretty bad--considering how much info is available
skyeyes_nr: I couldn't even get in with my normal account! Had to login as guest.
PHRima: Okay..bad diet..Vit A deficiency and consequent troubles, as well as too much fat, with liver troubels among other thigns
PHMaribou: yikes!
PHMaribou: yay ya made it skyeyes ;)
skyeyes_nr: thanks maribou
jama_nr: What partws od iet do you see most dificient?
DrBrianSpeer: I see clinical malnutrition on a daily basis. So, your answers are certainly valid, for those of you that chose B.
PHRima: I think we are all back now ffrom our fall off the perch??
PHCoosmom: Lots got booted
locob2: grrrrrrrr
skyeyes_nr: Rima, what was the question that booted everyone off (dare I ask lest I shake the branch?)
PHRima: Coos..I think three of us were left here..
DrBrianSpeer: Statistically, those seed-exclusive diets, in caged birds with no real exercise, over time - - really tend to be problematic.
PHRima: The consequenes of bad diet..:)
skyeyes_nr: ok thanks Rima :)
DrBrianSpeer: The high fat, plus time, is kind of like us eating greasy cheeseburgers every day - and expecting to not have our cardiologist gasp when we have a physical exam at 65 years of age.
jama_nr: Re-try: What parts of diet do you see most dificient? Where do we need to look first?
PHMacayo: I think that was a momentary chat blip or someone in power accidentally closed the room. :(
DrBrianSpeer: The question was...
DrBrianSpeer: What are the consequences of "bad diet" that can be a realistic issue that I may see regularly in practice?
PHCoosmom: !
PHRima: fatty liver diseae, fatty tumours...
PHCoosmom: Behavior issues.
PHRima: heart issues??
skyeyes_nr: Thanks, Doc. I fell off but came right back.
Janell_nr: All of the above.
DrBrianSpeer: Fat - associated disease is a biggie, for sure.
PHRima: Poor feathering...
skyeyes_nr: plucking too?
cheryl_nr: Have you ever been able to directly diagnos feather picking to a poor diet?
DrBrianSpeer: Lipidosis, arteriosclerosis, the feathering changes are often a result of abnormal metabolism and liver function, etc. Your answers are good.
PHRima: I cheated 7 asked my vet this questina whiel back..:)
DrBrianSpeer: In some species, Cheryl, feather damaging behavior - specifically intense itchiness and picking of pins in the pectoral and lateral flank tracts, CAN be linked to morbid obesity and liver dysfunction.
DrBrianSpeer: But, remember, this is still my number two category of disease..
PHRima: okay..so it's bactreia or behaviour..;)
DrBrianSpeer: How many folks chose behavioral disorders as the most common disease category?
cheryl_nr: What about a bird that is not obese or even overweight - say perhaps a deficenciy or something
Janell_nr: was my 2nd choice
PHRima: I'm waitign for more clues myself..;0..
Caridad_nr: behavioral is what I think it is
skyeyes_nr: behavioral as a category of disease? I'm still thinking...
PHRima: )
DrBrianSpeer: Good question, cheryl. We all can eat a poor diet for many years until there is really really significant disease that is generated. Same is often true for birds (in general).
alice_nr: I think its more behavioral then anything else.
jlong: Dr. B - I chose behavioral
PHChristy: I agree with you
PHCoosmom: <~~~thinks it is behavior issues [img id=em-6]
PHChristy: sorry!
DrBrianSpeer: So, Clinical malnutrition would be the term we would apply to physical disease (or behavioral disease) caused by the poor diet.
skyeyes_nr: I think it's bacteria
bird queen_nr: i think alice is right
DrBrianSpeer: Those birds that are not eating an ideal diet, but have no identifiable disease process (yet), do not yet have clinical malnutrition.
DrBrianSpeer: Make sense?
PHChristy: yes, definitely
cheryl_nr: yes.
PHRima: okay..I can see what you are saying..there is trouble ahead, but that is not why they are in your office today..
DrBrianSpeer: My leading answer, and the most common disease category we treat DAILY is behavioral problems.
cheryl_nr: What type of behavioral problems?
skyeyes_nr: behavior problems as a DISEASE? This is interesting.
DrBrianSpeer: Before we dig into it, let's talk about the last two options, cancer and bacterial infections.
PHRima: And is the problemthe bird, or the owner?
cheryl_nr: Most behavioral problems are inadvertantly positively reinforced by the owner
alice_nr: I think its the owner, not tuneing into the bird
cheryl_nr: that is part of it - yes
DrBrianSpeer: When instructing in veterinary programs, I try to be very clear about the use of disease as a proper term. Many of these poor birds really are suffering as a result of their problems. Many develop very very severe and life threatening consequences of their behavioral problems
PHRima: Like mutilation?
bird queen_nr: i think alice is right again
cheryl_nr: I agree
jlong: Besides picking, what are the other behavioral manifestations?
DrBrianSpeer: Cancer - - We diagnose neoplastic disease about once every 7-10 days. Some cancers are more common than others, and a surprising number actually can be treated very well - - if diagnosed early and treated in an agressive and progressive manner.
PHCoosmom: ?
DrBrianSpeer: We'll get back to behavior in a bit....
DrBrianSpeer: ga Coos
skyeyes_nr: there...I was going to ask what are the most common behavior problems you encounter that you would categorize as symptomatic of disease?
PHCoosmom: What is the most common Neoplastic disease?
PHMacayo: Let's remember protocol and try to keep commentary to a minimum until Dr. Speer gets his main points across; then we can come back for questions. Thank you.
DrBrianSpeer: In our older imported South American species, pancreatic cancer and bile duct cancers are becoming fairly common.
PHRima: ?
DrBrianSpeer: Xanthomas (cholesterol based tumors) are common as a spin off from chronic seed-based malnutrition in some species such as cockatiels
PHRima: ???
DrBrianSpeer: Lymphosarcomas, bronchial cell carcinomas, and squamous cell carcinomas are also not uncommon
DrBrianSpeer: ga Rima
PHRima: Xanthomas are non-malignant, yes?
DrBrianSpeer: We confirm more cases of cancer each year than Psittacosis.
DrBrianSpeer: Correct, Rima, Xanthoma is a cancer, but is not a malignant one.
PHRima: Thanks you..I had to have a partial wing amputation on an oldder Scarlet two years ago for that.
DrBrianSpeer: Bacterial infections - we do see bacterial infections, BUT, there are far more birds with bacterial isolates deemed to be infected that may actually not be so
DrBrianSpeer: For example, it is not uncommon to culture or isolate E coli from the vent of cockatoo species - but to prove true infection is actually much harder.
DrBrianSpeer: Any quick questions about bacterial infections before we move back to behavior?
PHRima: How DO you determine if it is an issue that requires treatment ornot?
PHRima: (If that's not too long an answer)
DrBrianSpeer: Good question rima -
locob2: ?
PHCoosmom: SOme, some of them are from my Amazon list.
DrBrianSpeer: Clinically, there should be other signs that can be attributed to the organism isolated that would be consistent with true infection.
DrBrianSpeer: For example, that cockatoo - does it have diarrhea? Does it have gastrointestinal disease?
PHRima: That makes sense...so just a few "bad bugs" isn't cause for immediate treatment?
DrBrianSpeer: And further - is the isolated organsim the cause of the problem?
DrBrianSpeer: For example - I saw a patient on second opinion two days ago - a 4 month old Timneh grey. Diagnosis was E coli infection, based on culture of the vent.
cheryl_nr: what were the symptoms?
DrBrianSpeer: In reality, this poor bird was sliding into the terminal aspect of Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease, was profoundly anemic, had early feather dysplasia, and was terminally ill. The E coli, if it were a problem, was far from the whole problem.
DrBrianSpeer: It is easy to "diagnose" bacterial infection in this manner, but it may not always be the correct primary diagnosis
PHCoosmom: Loco, did you have a question for Dr. Speer?
PHRima: 3ewww..at four months??
DrBrianSpeer: Make more sense?
locob2: bacterial infections, that includes staph infections right? contagious or not?
alice_nr: yeast infection's too?
PHRima: Dr, speer, yes, you are sayign they are often secondary to the primary issue?
DrBrianSpeer: With PBFD disese in African species of parrots, there is a less-common scenario where virus effects bone marrow, and anemia and other problems develop.
PHMacayo: Again..let's remember protocol..type ? if you have a question so you can be taken in turn by PHCoosmom
DrBrianSpeer: Well stated rima - primary, vs secondary, vs tertiary involvement in the development of a state of disease.
DrBrianSpeer: locob- bacterial infections MAY be contagious (Salmonellosis), but may not - Staph infection of the skin.
DrBrianSpeer: Questions? Comment?
parrotnutz_nr: ?
locob2: right, that's what I was wondering about, the staph infection
locob2: contagious? this bird was a plucker
PHCoosmom: Parrotnutz, your question for Dr. Speer please?
parrotnutz_nr: to get a proper diagnosis u need more than just a culture then?
parrotnutz_nr: u need blood?
DrBrianSpeer: Staphylococcal infections, in birds, are generally regarded as non-contagious.
parrotnutz_nr: clinical signs?
Sherlock1: ?
PHCoosmom: Que: Sherlock
DrBrianSpeer: In our exposure here, they are ususally secondary events to something primary such as long standing malnutrition, obesity, poor environmental sanitation, or other events.
DrBrianSpeer: So, parrotnutz, a culture, alone, often will not get the WHOLE picture with bacterial disease.
Guest_nr: ?
parrotnutz_nr: ga
PHCoosmom: Sherlock, your question for Dr. Speer.
Sherlock1: Is it true that a parrot is just a feathered "little Human?" Behaviorally speaking......
PHCoosmom: Que, Guest
DrBrianSpeer: What if your parrot is stressed, malnurished and traumatized, and develops a secondary Staph infection, then mutilates that area? Will antibiotics correct the whole picture? Will a culture, alone, diagnose the whole picture?
PHCoosmom: ?
DrBrianSpeer: The better I get to know parrots, the more I do believe that their behavior is VERY similar, and simultaneously VERY different from human behavior.
Guest_nr: Sorry I got on late. If u haven't alrady discussed it, is there Anything new on PDD?
PHCoosmom: Que: Guest, Coosmom
DrBrianSpeer: We have many things that we could learn from emulating parrot behavior.
Sherlock1: They're such little ornery rascals! ga
DrBrianSpeer: For those of you that entered late, we are discussing the potential answers to this probing question:
DrBrianSpeer: What is the most common disease category we see in our practice with pet birds?
DrBrianSpeer: a. Psittacosis
b. Clinical malnutrition
c. Behavioral disorders
d. Cancer
e. Bacterial infections
jlong: ?
DrBrianSpeer: Regarding PDD - Proventricular Dilitation Disease - nothing dramatically new. We have some meds that seem to help many birds, we still believe that it is viral in cause, and still do not clearly have the specific cause identified.
DrBrianSpeer: So.. Behavior
DrBrianSpeer: Our most common category of problems we need to help folks address with pet birds daily is behavior
PHCoosmom: Que Coosmom, Jlong
Canarymom1_nr: ?
PHCoosmom: Dr Speer, I believe that what you are saying is that behavior can be a result of or even a cause of other disease processes? Am I correct?
PHCoosmom: Que, Jlong, Canarymom
jlong: coos, sorry, but does that mean I can ask my ? now or wait for a GA
DrBrianSpeer: You are very correct Coosmom. With animals as intelligent as our companion parrots are, we are predisposed to underestimate this, and make fundamental errors that creat a world of havoc later on
DrBrianSpeer: Perceived or real behavioral problems in parrots are common. In reality, these problems typically outnumber the diagnoses of infectious disease in many pet avian patients. These complaints may result from multiple causes, including but not limited to, misinterpretation of normal behaviors, learned and reinforced behaviors that are undesired, or inappropriate grooming or physical restraint experiences. Behavioral complaints such as screaming, biting, dominance, reproductive drive or pathologic bonding are common complaints. Sadly, parrot behavioral problems are largely responsible for the majority of birds surrendered to sanctuaries in the United States and abroad. (10) In small animal medicine, no disease process claims more companion animal lives than behavioral problems. This is indirectly true, most likely, with parrots.
cheryl_nr: I agree.
PHCoosmom: Thank you. Jlong, your question please.
DrBrianSpeer: The companion parrot that is a viable part of the home setting and family, properly trained, and that interacts in a health flock type manner, is MUCH more predisposed to have a healthy lifestyle, an intellectually stimulated mind, less behavioral problems, less stress, and a healthier body.
PHCoosmom: Que, Canarymom
jlong: Hi, Dr. B., I have an appt. with you next Sat., for Jack a rescue Harlequin macaw. I'm still struggling with her picking problem. I hear varying impressions
jlong: of whether it's behaviroral or medical, I know you think it's behavioral... why are there such varying opinions?
jlong: (you have seen Jack before, ever since I got her two years ago)
PHCoosmom: Jlong, your question?
DrBrianSpeer: An interesting thought: What does the typical pet parrot need to be taught in order to be most optimally positioned to be a part of our lives? (in the same manner that we know what a pet dog needs to be taught)
jlong: (btw - I believe her problem is behavioral... )
PHCoosmom: Canarymom, your question please
Canarymom1_nr: My 10-yr-old finch died today. We went to vet on Friday, and the vet found nothing physically wrong. Today, he began losing his balance, he couldn't perch, and his head jerked around. Could he have died from neurologic problems that a vet can't really check for?
DrBrianSpeer: Lots of people simply dont think that pet birds NEED to be taught specific things at all - -
DrBrianSpeer: which is a real boo-boo
jlong: What do they need to be taught?
bluebird 5902_nr: ?
cheryl_nr: Ohh they need to be taught to live in our world if we expect them to live with us - don't you think?
DrBrianSpeer: Sorry about the loss of your finch. There would be a large list of potential disorders that can have been involved. Far more than there is space and time to discuss here, unfortunately
DrBrianSpeer: Well stated cheryl
DrBrianSpeer: What do they need to know?
PHMacayo: Protocol folks! PHRima is next in the queue
PHRima: so how so I STOP whispering?
cheryl_nr: But on the other hand we have to keep in mind that they are parrots, too and adapt to them. We become their flock and we need to be sensitive to their need
PHChristy: that we come and go? to be transported, groomed, and given medical attention and medication?
DrBrianSpeer: Absolutely correct cheryl.
Canarymom1_nr: Thank you. I'll talk with the vet tomorrow
DrBrianSpeer: That is why we want to learn from them, with them, and to teach them.
PHMacayo: PHRima...your question for Dr. Speer?
PHRima: What woudl you consider the one most imporatnt "lesson" for yor companion parrot to know?
BirdDummy_nr: ?
DrBrianSpeer: In Birds for Dummies, we outlined some of the basics: Step to the hand, step down to an independent training perch when asked, and stay where you have been perched.
DrBrianSpeer: “Step up” is a request for the bird to step to your hand. The communication of this request can be made with body language, verbally, or both. The step up is to the hand, and to the hand only – not the arm, not the shoulder, not the head, but to the hand. With most parrots, a willingness to have the toes held while they are stepped to your hand is desirable. This simple request allows the birds to be handled and moved about the house in a structured format. In order to have a step up request succeed, it should not trigger fear-based responses, and requires from the bird a willingness to trust the human who is making the request. A companion bird that is afraid of the hand, that has learned to bite the hand before it, or that has learned to flee rather than trust the hand before it is less likely to fit well as a viable family member for the years to come. Furthermore, it is more likely that this simple deficit will beget others with time.
DrBrianSpeer: “Step down” is a request for the bird to leave your hand. The communication of this request can be made with body language, verbally, or both, as is the “step up”. The step down is from the hand to the perch, with the beak going to the perch, and the bird proceeding to step forward and upwards onto the perch itself. The step down is executed by moving the bird, on your hand, to the perch, placing the beak onto the perch from a lower position than the perch is, and rotating your hand so that the bird is obligated to shift its weight from the hand to the perch. A bird that is unwilling to stay on the hand and follow the basics of the step up request is less likely to be able to be taught to step down.
PHRima: So you woudl say the primary lesson to be learned is "step up and down on my request"?
DrBrianSpeer: "Stay where placed" is an important requisite for most pet parrots but unfortunately, a common behavior that is overlooked. The bird that does not stay where it is placed roams and increases its tendency to expect free and unbridled movement about the household with time, increases its vulnerability to household toxicoses and traumatic injuries, and necessitates as a result that it remain more in its cage than would be ideal.
DrBrianSpeer: Rima - those simple basics are HUGE for most pet parrots.
PHMacayo: BirdDummy...your question for Dr. Speer please?
PHRima: I noticed..:)
BirdDummy_nr: First, I want to say that I am getting Birds for Dummies for my Christmas gift, along with some other books, as a first step to getting a bird. May I ask, what type of bird or birds do you consider best for absolute beginners? I want to do this right, and there are a few types of bird I'm interested in. I'd like to make a good choice. I am considering canaries, finches, and budgies. Thank you and ga.
DrBrianSpeer: DAILY, I see pet birds that are so poorly trained, poorly acclimitized, and so successful at training their owners to follow their desires, that there are significant spin-off behavioral disorders.
bluebird 5902_nr: ??
DrBrianSpeer: Many of these lead, with time, to significant medical disorders and psychological problems.
PHRima: The classic "A parrot in charge of its own life, but not foign a very good job of it"?
DrBrianSpeer: The "classic" problems, behaviorally, are with the medium to large parrot species, from conures up to the larger macaws.
DrBrianSpeer: BirdDummy - I think that some of the common parrot species may be fine to begin with too, if you do your homework and try to do things right from the start. Lots of the highlights and risks of the species groups are mentioned in Birds for Dummies, if you were to look there
DrBrianSpeer: Want another quick question?
parrotnutz_nr: cat is gone......but trained birds first
BirdDummy_nr: thank you!
PHMacayo: Go ahead Bluebird
parrotnutz_nr: oops sorry
DrBrianSpeer: Any more discussion about general behavior material?
PHRima: How many of your clietns will follow through and try to work with a "badly behavign" parrot?
bluebird 5902_nr: How do you feel about breeders selling unweaned babies? What would a person have to do to prove qualifications of handfeeding to a breeder. I breed large macaws and I have many people telling me that since they have handfed a grey in the past they are ready to take on a 5 week old hyacinth
bluebird 5902_nr: Sorry,, That was a question to Dr Speer
DrBrianSpeer: Good question Rima - we work with behavioral issues constantly. Our success is good, if there is a good serial working schedule with owner AND bird, and sequentially planned steps are outlined, followed through and evaluated - as would any other clininical disease process. Hence, my use of the term, "Behavioral Disease".
PHRima: Thanks..glad to hear peopel are willing to try to correct problems they have created.
DrBrianSpeer: Most problems are created through a lack of what SHOULD be done differently. Very few people will intentionally create these problems in birds. As such, they are usually very excited to hear that there can be things done and approaches taken to address issues.
PHMacayo: Dr. Speer....we've kept you well past our appointed hour. Do you want to take more questions?
DrBrianSpeer: Wow - Time flies!
PHRima: (so shoudl we sk your opinion on wingclipping given that comment?)
DrBrianSpeer: I can take a few more questions, if anyone has any specific things I can address.
PHMacayo: It has a way of doing that in these very interesting chats :)
bluebird 5902_nr: Dr Speer if you have the time to answer me please?
PHRima: ???
wolfette1961_nr: ?
PHMacayo: Okay...3 more questions....line up!
bluebird 5902_nr: Dr Speer
bluebird 5902_nr: how do you feel about selling unweaned babies
PHCoosmom: Dr. Speer, did you see Bluebirds question?
DrBrianSpeer: Here is a question that is along th
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